But it's not FAIR that my neighbor has a Lexus but I drive an Impala.
And it's not FAIR that my neighbor went to Cancun and I went to the state park for vacation.
And it's not FAIR that my neighbor has health insurance while I do not.
I dunno, did the Ten Commandments have exceptions which say is it okay to covet thy neighbors goods if things weren't EQUAL??
The Z Platform
1 day ago
25 comments:
Maybe he was saying that greed is bad....
What kinda greed we talkin' about here?
What do the 10 Commandments have to do with this?
Envy..greed...couple of the seven deadly sins. Envy can become need.
I worked with an elderly woman scientist some years back. She was a German, residing in Estonia.
During WWII, she was sent to various concentration camps, first
Russian, then German. I remarked that must have been very hard. She said at one point food became more important than life itself; she spotted a rotten potato near the barbed wire, an SS guard standing over it. Her 'envy', 'greed' was such that she limped over, bent down and grapped the potato. With his machine gun pointed at her forhead, she 'greedily' bit off
a piece. She said he watched her eat the rest, then turned and walked away. It makes one wonder that with a bit of human empathy, things like envy and greed might fade in perspective.....
Shaw, what do you mean by "this"?
BB-Idaho, always has a story to tell, but I doubt anyone would consider the woman in your story as being greedy.
The unalienable right to life encompasses the process of self-sustaining that life through one's own self generated action. In 'caveman' times, a man would kill his pray and sustain his life by cooking and thus eating it and using its hide as a means of protecting against the elements. This is precisely why the right to property is so paramount and fundamental to all other rights. That which you acquire through your own effort, you must be able to keep for your own use and disposal.
Obviously, we've evolved passed these prehistoric times (well some of us anyway). However, the principle(s) still apply. Rather than go out into the wilderness and hunt our food, we employ different means (i.e., we may open a store, sell goods, make money, then use that money to buy food and pay for our shelter). This is again why I was such a staunch opponent of the dreaded smoking bans on private property owners. But I digress...
Laboring and being productive for the purpose of sustaining one's life (whether it be crawling to a rotted potato under fear of death or inventing a product and selling it on the open market) is NOT and never shall be deemed an action of greed.
And I should say that the irony is that when one does so and another perceives it to be in access, it is he who has committed the true sin (envy). And, it is when he acts on his first sin that he committs his second (greed).
Without 'envy' the advertising business would go belly up. Regarding 'cavemen', most anthropologists think their nomadic clan societies were, of necessity, sharing. When homo sapiens learned to grow and store grain, the concept of property and ownership (as well as government and religion) was greatly expanded.
So much so, that now days one of the first words infants learn is
'mine'!) Now as for going to Cancun, who would envy ducking drug lord machine-gun fire? State Park is fine with me...:)
BB, how do we know if those nomads were sharing or bartering?
And the advertising industry does not create envy but desires, and if as Soapie points out, we earn the means to buy those desired products, how can that be envy or greed? It's when we look to what others have acquired and make that our desires that we create envy.
But good point on Cancun, I should have said "Hawaii".
BB-Idaho,
Greed usually has to do with considering ones own needs and wants ahead of someone else's. I do not see how your example of a hungry lady fits this description.
Soapbox,
Things are acquired partly by effort and partly by God given talents and abilities. This is why the requirement of helping out and giving to the poor is a reasonable requirement from God. To neglect in doing this could be considered greed even though the money one has was fairly earned, because it shows lack of gratitude towards God for supplying us with our God given talents and gifts.
Greed generally refers to excess, not need and Envy is at times understandable, yet when it is felt too strongly, it becomes a barrier between people, preventing friendships between people who are in different classes.
As you may well know by now Lista I'm not a man of faith. I'm first and foremost a man of reason.
God given talents or not, one's ability doesn't simply come to fruition and materialize out of thin air. That said, I don't agree with your premise that things are aquired vis a' vis God given talents or abilities (unless your arguing that one such talent or ability is reason. Even still, not everyone adopts reason in their means to survive). People often die with great potential for not other reason other than the fact that they failed to harness their own [God given] potential.
And, because I presume that God would give everyone some sort talent or ability, why is it then that I'd owe any excess of my own success to another?
The fact that people die all the time without ever harnessing "their own (God given) Potential" is very true, yet this doesn't change the fact that the God Given Potential given to one person is not necessarily equal to that of another.
The reason why excess is owed to the Poor is because God requires it and since God is the one who gave the talent and ability, He has the right to require this.
I know that I've referred my favorite Post on this subject before and so you probably have read it, but if there are any others out there who haven't, the Post on my Blog that best describes my ideas on this subject is Lessons for the Stong and the Weak, and a more recent Post on the subject of money is What Brings Happiness/Makes People Happy? Money??. The Second of these Posts comes to a different conclusion than some might expect.
The First of these Posts contains Bible verses relating to both the Strong and the Weak/the Rich and the Poor. In general, people have a tendency to focus on the verses that relate to other people besides themselves, thus someone who is both Strong and Rich will tend to focus on what the Bible says to the Poor, yet what's more appropriate is to focus on the verses that relate to the group that you yourself belong to, whether than pointing your fingers at those who belong to the other group.
In relation to the Strong and Rich, the verse that keeps coming to my mind again and again and again is the one in 1 Corintians; "For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?" 1 Corinthians 4:7, NIV. This verse can not be stressed enough.
We are also instructed to give to the Poor and the only reason that a person could have for not doing so is the pride that is described in the above verse.
"...God Given Potential given to one person is not necessarily equal to that of another."
No necessarily equal in the same field perhaps. While one man might be blessed with musical ability another might be blessed with engineering skills. Regardless, both men are gifted by God.
What's more,were not all men (and women) created by God through the same means? God did not create each man and woman one at a time Lista. It would appear as though your statement flies in the face of foundational Christian theology no?
Soapbox,
I agree that Talent and Ability doesn't "simply come to fruition and materialize out of thin air, I wouldn't say that anything about the miracle of life is the result of "thin air", for it is truly miraculous in every way, yet to possess a gift that comes without effort happens all the time.
I, for example, was singing harmony as a child prior to receiving any training what-so-ever. My brother, though, can't even carry a tune.
BB-Idaho made a comment on my most recent Post, "Fast Food Information/Truth Worth Waiting For, in that for him, "Writing was ridiculously easy". I feel the same way about singing.
Alas, you've just proven a couple of my points.
One is that, while you may in fact be gifted with singing ability, BB is gifted with writing ability. Both of you have a "God" given ability if you prefer.
Secondly, and more importantly in my book, is that this "ability" would otherwise remain dormant were it not harnessed by your own mind and your own concious effort.
Who says that God is not still actively involved in His creation, creating us one at a time. Another verse that comes to mind is the one in Psalms 129:13-16, "13) For You created my inmost being; You knit me together in my mother's womb. 14) I praise You because I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Your works are wonderful. I know that full well. 15) My frame was not hidden from You when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, 16) Your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in Your book before one of them came to be." (NIV)
I don't know what "Christian Theology" you are referring to, Soap. All I know is what the Bible says and I go by that, not something decided on by any one particular church who has decided to create their own "Theology".
Not all abilities result in money, Z. To make money as a singer, one has to not only be good, but very greatly exceptional. It is hard to make money in any of the arts. That's a well known fact.
The bottom line, Soap, is that the same creator that passed out these gifts has requested from the ones who He gave more to that they share with the ones that He gave less to.
Aside from the verse that I already quoted, another group of verses that is in that same Post, "Lessons for the Strong and the Weak" (Linked Above) is the parable of the talents, in which the subject of the inequality of the gifts is directly addressed; Matthew 25:14-30.
I think that what this comes down to, Soap, is that not all God Given Gifts are treated equally in a Capitalist society. For example, those who are gifted in Leadership and Management abilities are rewarded in Capitalism quite a bit more than those who are gifted and areas of Service, even though, without those who are willing to Serve those in Leadership, a company would never be able to function and make money.
If you think about this, you will realize that often those at the top not only lack Appreciation and Gratitude towards God for their God Given Gifts, but also towards those who Serve them and help their companies to thrive.
"If you think about this, you will realize that often those at the top not only lack Appreciation and Gratitude towards God for their God Given Gifts, but also towards those who Serve them and help their companies to thrive."
I don't find this to be the norm Lista. Rather it is the exception.
Of course the political intelligentsia with the media behind them would lead one to conclude otherwise.
And actually, I find in many instances the exact opposite of what you're saying to be true. I think far too often people are thankful to someone or something other than themselves. They far too often harbor some sense of guilt in working towards and achieving success. How often to we see a simple shrug of the shoulders?
I love nothing more than to see someone hugely successful tell themselves and anyone in ear shot:
"I earned this."
A small level of pride is healthy and a small level of guilt is healthy. Pride becomes Arrogance only when it is excessive and Guilt can be either reasonable or excessive as well. When a small level of guilt moves someone to be generous to someone who is less fortunate, this is healthy.
Also how can Gratitude ever be excessive? Humility and Gratitude are tremendous positives and never should be discouraged.
Here's another verse...
"3) For by the grace given me, I say to every one of you, 'Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.'" (Romans 12:3, NIV)
I do believe we have God given talents, but if that is all there is to us providing for ourselves, then how can anyone envy another, for it is because of those talents that they have what they have! There must be more to it, in my opinion that is our own motivations for succeeding, and reaping our own benefits. Which does not preclude us from giving from our aquisitions to others in need.
Beth,
That is why we are asked not to Envy, because to do so is to say that we are not pleased with what has been given us by God, or that we are not pleased with how He made us.
It is only natural, however, for those who struggle more than the average to envy those for whom things come easy. To feel this way is human nature and for those who have to flaunt it in the face of another is nothing less than disrespectful and unkind. Excess Pride is also very Ugly and Unkind.
Lista, you almost sound like God's gifts can limit us, and I don't think that is true.
Everyone has their struggles. And, comparatively speaking, no one's struggles are any greater or lesser than any other.
And, respectfully, it seems that while you're saying that we are asked not to envy on the one hand, you're harboring a certain level of envy on the other with the implication that some people's struggles are greater than anyone else's.
There is a level of envy in suggesting as much.
That is why I say that when you look at an individual's struggle in its proper context, no person's struggle is any greater or lesser than anyone elses.
Beth,
It is not gifts that limit us, but handicaps. I keep coming back to the example of the Retarded or Mentally Challenged because the limits of such an individual are obvious. There are those, however, who are mildly "Mentally Challenged" in ways that fall short of the definition of "Retarded" and thus will not qualify for Government Assistance.
A Retarded person usually is not able to do anything more than a minimum wage job and many of them can not work at all. The type of "Mildly Challenged" that I am talking about can indeed work, but do not have the capacity to make much money. The fact that this reality exists is what causes me to not approve of certain more extreme Republican ideas, such as the Flat Tax.
There are also those who are Emotionally Challenged. Whether this is caused by genetics or how someone is raised is actually sort of irrelevant because God requires us to offer Forgiveness, just as He has offered it to us.
Soapbox,
"Comparatively speaking, no one's struggles are any greater or lesser than any other."
There is no way that you could possibly know this unless you had the ability to walk in everyone else's shoes, yet no one can really do that, so all statements such as the one I just quoted are nothing more than guesses. You do not know that.
I'm not going to deny that there has ever been any Envy in my heart. It is human nature to do so and we all have done it, because we all have our own areas of weakness and limits.
My main concern, though, has always been Pride, because it is a sin that God Hates. For the Bible says.
"But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: 'God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.'" (James 4:6, NIV)
Also' anyone who reads Matthew 25:14-30 and receives it with an honest heart can not miss the suggested inequality. You can either look this up in the Bible, or read it on my Post at; "Lessons for the Strong and the Weak".
Beth,
Soapbox may or may not receive anything that I present to him in Scripture form, but if I understand it right, you are a Christian.
"..no person's struggle is any greater or lesser than anyone elses." Perception, perhaps. I'm an old happy guy. But I knew a fellow who died young and terribly with amylotrophic lateral sclerosis. May I posit his struggle as greater than mine?
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